And I appreciate you screening out the non-productive whining posts. Anyone know how to handle constant Re-orgs. on this one. 3. When it comes to where you actually rank and what you get paid that part is all that matters. If they see flaws you have flaws. I have to agree with a few that have posted already. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room. I think your comments on level 63 were interesting. * Stability at Microsoft is a two-edged sword. According to Glassdoor, senior software engineers at Google can earn $172,818 as their average base pay, along with average cash bonuses of $30,921, stock bonuses of $104,769, and some other cash incentives for a total of $201,000. In general, these designations are based on rank, with the highest director position being the executive director or director of operations. Good luck with that. +1 on the level balancing difference in subs.As someone who has transferred employees to/from corp/sub both directions and has promoted a bunch of folk, the corp level for a role is 2 numbers higher than the equivalent sub one. I was let go from Microsoft recently. Here's to you! For me, it will take some serious job switching to get there. For context, I have always been "exceeded" or "high achieved", If you want to dig a bit more around job titles which gives you an idea of someones level or the dispersion of a team, remember that the title you see in Outlook is not the real title, its just the address book title. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. Pull the ripcord. Working with high EQ allows you to collaborate better. given that the resource is static. I have actively helped people leave MS who were topped out at level at MS but who wanted to do something else. Woow. Senior directors are tenured members of an organization who are considered part of the leadership or executive team, in which they represent their department or division. Ugh, not good, not good at all.>Finance is cutting 10% of work force. A Principal-level employee at Microsoft is someone who drives strategic efforts in their area of expertise. And to your skip level. keep in mind mentors are not one size fit's all. I had an expectation to become principal this year. I'm a level 64 lead in Windows and this post is spot on. If you are considering leaving your team (or Microsoft) but think you could be persuaded to stay, be careful about how you present this to your manager. Full stop. Senior Account Executive | Director | Sales & Marketing. To go to L60 as an IC you need to show leadership in your group, proactivity in taking new challenges which affect the success of the group, and be a SME on your tech area (if in a tech role).L61 = M1 of a medium sized team or an IC role which influences the results of a v-team significantlyL62 = M2 or M1 of a large team, or a lead role for a large cross-group initiative (e.g. So he is looking to become partner this year on the team's work. If it is, awesome -- go do it, drive it to completion. Will a L63 have direct reports and/or manage v-? I think getting promoted elsewhere is not as tough as getting promoted in CTS-GTSC. The reason: there are a number of factors of success that are common at all levels (see #6 and #7 below). Of course I ensure my manager and skip-level are aware of my contribution as a mentor, but I figure that as long as I'm in front of the wave, the best way for me to advance is to move the wave forward. then you're really off in the weeds.Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. @No! I only wish the internal MyMicrosoft blog had posts that were this valuable and insightful. Chris Capossela. When does that year start? After that I got 3 levels in 3 years and now at level 64. I could make changes quickly and with quality. Needless to say that not many will admit this fact. If the answer is regularly a 'yes', then this clearly is an indication that you are ready. Just like a lot of folks have a fetish to be managers even when it is against their natures.Having said this, consider which is better: a) Rushing through the levels and to be stuck in 64 for ages (to be Kim'd is especially painful here) - think Sarah Palin orb) Going through the levels at a healthy pace, getting far deep into the salary ranges that will assure higher pay when the new levels come. Aren't those the things you are best at? It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. Success breeds Success: I remember reading an article about an extensive study to determine the best predictor of a stocks price tomorrow. Could somebody please confirm or deny this. Attack problems within your own areas of influence proactively and generate that same good vibe among peers. Feedback is not detailed or actionable. If he thought you were trouble already, though, telling him you are thinking about leaving is like asking for a ticket out of there.7. When I mastered the above -- and when I had partner teams widely viewed as difficult or bad partners coming to my GM and singing my praises as the go-to guy, *that* is when I became a Principal. If I was 65/66 material, why did they wait until I gave notice to offer me the promotion? The scope imcreases, the risk increases and the visbility increases. Remember the "how".All the things Mini mentions do translate further up in levels. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. Is this a normal situation and should I not be worried? Do not accept promises, or you will be already disappointed with your new team as soon as some promises dont materialize (and believe me: you will lose your patience long before some promises materialize). Biggest key for me was knowing when to leave a bad management situation and team. If you want the longest Microsoft career possible, why advance any faster than you have to. Benefits can add thousands of dollars to your offer. Director can be applied to L65 or L66. Senior-level Marketing Executive with experience in the consumer and B2B industry. He won't answer your questions on what is going on or you get vague answers.All of this in most cases is probably directives from HR. If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. The Job titles for this position are: Following is the complete list of Job levels at Microsoft: The highest job title in technical track in Microsoft is "Technical Fellow". Framed on my former VP's wall:"High-level guys are low-level guys that don't whine.". If you dont know what exactly an L63 is, how are you able to make promotion discussions in the review meetings?Managers become so defensive when asked what we should be doing to advance. Now a VP at a small cap (and growing, yes in this economy) company. Leadership, for instance. Mini, all those aspects you list are also present at L62, L65, etc. Given all that, the two things that are key to promotion are:1) Your relationship with your skip level manager. Ask your VP, give the benefits on transparency from your perspective, and ask their opinion. Whenever his lead would ask him to do X he would refuse and insist on doing Y instead. If you know higher leveled people in another org, ask them to poke holes in your proposals. You have to strive to get the KEY to the boss's heart and brain. Those people are almost all Level 62's with few prospects. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? Any suggestions on how to focus on this. Somebody help me out here. I have had 3 positions in the past 8 years and best advise i can give is NETWORKING. When someone else is waiting on you for something, don't be the reason they can't get their shit done.4. There's a reason why they had the kind of brand loyalty that Microsoft can only dream of.Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. My experience is a constant melee of *every* single person trying to influence cross-group. If you have a good manager he/she will ensure the relevant peers know all about it. If you can make the argument about the job - and you're in a position of strength, obviously harder now than in years past, you can make the case. I'm not talking about "managing up" (though that helps a little if done properly) but it's all about understanding your manager and skip manager's priorities and proactively succeeding in those areas. Thanks for starting this. Look closely, and you'll probably find that this person is working symbiotically with someone else who masters those skills while lacking others.YES, there are people who've been promoted because they've simply "been there" for a long time. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. "I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65. That's the wall you need to talk about, but the discussion would be very different than the L63 bump.And after 5+ years at L64, I finally just left. Similarly, the best predictor of your success at the next level is your success at the current level! Level 61 - overseas. Tech savvy yet entrepreneurship minded hence able to see things from . Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. If I ever do decide to come back to MSFT, I will do so as a level 68+ and nothing less. Its UI is fundamentally incoherent, showing probably the worst case of design-by-committee since the control room at Three Mile Island. Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple [] The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate cultureThanks for a nice belly laugh to re-energize my morning. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. Satya Nadella. They took credit for work done by others (#2 helps).Seriously, they only way to separate the wheat from the chaff in this company is to allow to interview without notifying the manager. Chief Executive Officer and Director. At a basic level, in a company the size of Microsoft, the higher you go, the less you contribute individually and the more you contribute by your impact on an organization - hiring the right people, setting clear and correct goals, driving alignment and execution. I'm a level 62 dev trying to get to 63. If youre working individually there is an upper limit on how much you can accomplish since there are only 24 hours in a day some of which must be devoted to eating, sleeping, and other bodily functions. One, we bill customers higher for higher levels and we call everyone 'highly experienced' or even an 'architect'. 6 years ago I developed what I have been supporting since. So all you're telling me is I can't count on you so why should I? Is there any way to get to 63 w/o leaving and coming back? It's because you were playing catch-up to Apple, and playing Machiavellian games with the media companies instead of working on the issues that your customers were complaining about.Vista is still unreliable, unsecurable, and a massive pain in the ass to use on a daily basis. Losing focus of your target next career level will leave you with nothing but regret and wasted time, sometimes years. You are employed by Microsoft's shareholders. Flip on the klaxons! the answer is simple - take on more. The Job titles for this position are: Software Development Engineer SDE What an achievement! Its above level 64 that things get tough, but getting to 64 isn't difficult. L68 is partner, or you may see GM. Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. I've changed jobs but came back to the group that's been the most supportive. For some teams - especially those like Office with few departures release-to-release resulting in level compression - that's a rough bunch. Despite the fact you may be totally right, you can inadvertently be viewed as a negative person.Although your bosses are probably aware of the problems, they might be overwhelmed by the scope of the situation, and start getting annoyed at you for being the person always reminding them about the flaws. Know where you are in the stack and understand how you will rank higher next year.BTW, forgot to mention I was a manager for the second half of my career. >> You forgot "never ask for a promotion".That's the absolute worst advice one can give to a Microsoft employee, IMO. "We have a stable and relatively easy job, and as long as we achieve, we will not get fired." Don't be afraid to ask your manager some very direct questions.Don't force the issue. Excuses and griping and bemoaning aren't the stuff that L63 contributors are made of. Senior Director Levels at Microsoft 63 (Senior Manager) 64 Principal EM (Principal Director of Engineering) 66 Senior Director (67) GM, Partner (SDE Group Manager) 69 VP (70) Corporate VP (80) Executive VP (81) View 7 More Levels United States No region found, search all locations Greater Seattle Area San Francisco Bay Area View All Data If it doesn't, what could you add to make that work? And don't beleive your boss if they say otherwise. It varies greatly from manager to skip.The hardest point for me to bear is that I am young, capable of doing so much more, and absolutely dying to do more. Calibrations are like a brick wall, even in regard to comments made about you. take the time to find a mentor that is a great fit for you and the issue you're working on. I think it's safe to say that I "own" the group of people under L63 in my group, but I usually take that as an opportunity for mentorship as opposed to an opportunity to poach someone else's cool project. Most are management types whose only skill is sucking up. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. As someone who left MS @ L63 - and supposedly tracking strongly to L64 - and who has seen a lot of questionable promos occur, I think it's fair to say that the rise to "Senior" follows a slighly skewed distribution curve in that in the largest bucket case, you can probably see that L63 was warranted.However, on either end of the distribution, by which I mean people who easily obtained it and people who seriously struggled to obtain it, there are some disturbing anomalies that are difficult to explain away.You might say, "I can live with the corner cases" and I would agree that optimizing for those isn't worthwhile.BUT! "haven't seen nothing yet" is a fairly common construction. When your manager finally ask you to do X, you'll be nodding your head and saying, "yeah, totally, and here's my progress on X." I was in a group that was reorging constantly and there were frequent management changes, so it took all of the political skill I'd developed over the years to focus my GM on giving me that fucking promotion. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. Will some new person to the team who shows high growth potential push you aside even though you've been doing really solid work for years?Sometimes I wish it worked like an experience bar in a video game where you can clearly see when you will "ding". This is a large part of his job - getting his reports to excel and getting them (and by extension, himself) some recognition.All of the above assumes you don't suck, though. Especially since the days of job title/level transparency.People should not forget that many times, higher levels do not equal higher pay. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. If you get caught in a review and someone hits a fastball by you and you stumble, the people above you suddenly have fears that you might stumble when they and you are in front of the person who controls their careers. If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). Not only do I have a much more interesting job with much less BS, I make more money as well. If you're not there yet and your boss was asked that question by your skip-level-boss, what is your boss's answer? During that time I had two good to great managers. What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. That figures. You'd do well to read it again:Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. Promotion to 63 happened to me 2 years ago when I helped ship Office 2007. I'm an SDE, so a large part of my time in the product cycle is spent fixing bugs. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. Your best bet is to help your boss get a promotion. Lots of groundwork, considerable drama and leverage but eventually it got done. Don't make promises to follow up on things and then let them drop. don't make enemies), change jobs about once every 3-4 years, and do your job reasonably wellfor a decade. And your list of bullet points on qualities of a 63-er is pretty much the short list I have boiled it down to. Then I would get emails rating my abilities in these areas that I had no input into it and any replies rebutting it would go unanswered. A) What is the market facing title for L66 and above levels at Microsoft?B) What is the equivalent at Microsoft of Amazon L7?C) Rank the below titles at Microsoft in decreasing order of seniority: e.gPrincipal > Senior Director > Director > Senior Manager > Partner, Go to company page
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